I've been trying to turn my house into a "third place" for my friends and family since I'm right in the center of town but good grief man, people are so dang busy. I can hardly ever get more than one person there at a time. People don't seem to want to make socializing a priority, and communicating with them is a nightmare. I don't blame my friends for being kinda flaky, because the world is constantly throwing more to-do's in their direction, but it's a really tough go trying to be the one that organizes things. It always has been. Makes me really self-conscious that the problem is me... lol. Even trying to get people to a different third location that isn't my house is rough. Getting the opportunity to see a friend once a month is a huge stroke of luck for me these days, let alone more than one friend at a time. IDK man, this whole topic has been an internal dialogue of mine ever since I began my mid-20's. I think your 20's are just a lonelier time than people warn you about.
I wish I could tell you it gets better, but I'm approaching the end of my 30s. Married with 2 kids and... damn. It's lonely out there. Like you said, the to-do list is ever growing. And it's very difficult to make socializing a priority, especially socializing just for the sake of it. Like, it's easier to ask someone to come over to my house to lift weights. Or, let's play hookie and go to the gun range for the afternoon. But get together just to get together...? I wonder if it's FOMO.
Yes, I thinking the best chance is to combine the hanging out time with something you'd both be doing anyway... Rucking together or the range, like you said. Then the question becomes, are we only workout buddies and not real friends?! Ha, at least you're spending time with someone with similar interests either way
I commend you Ryker for trying; I have often thought how nice it would be if I could turn my house into a place where people just dropped by unannounced but I have made no real effort to do so.
I think people are busy, but I also think people have a tough time committing to "unproductive" time. There was some recent book (the name escapes me) talking about how people do not value friendships. They obviously do, but people often don't make the same effort as say a romantic relationship where you likely commit to seeing and talking at some regular frequency.
I have one friend that I have a virtual art date with twice a week. Often those dates turn into just chatting, but if we committed to twice a week chats, it would not have the same stickiness as committing to art sessions. This is certainly not the solution, but as Jonathan also says, perhaps making it a trivia night, a workout night, a <something> night would help at least develop the habit and slowly it could evolve to more of a general hang out
The mma/jiu jitsu gym I coach at is undoubtedly one of my third places along with a local fitness group I created for the community. Amazing how volunteering your skills and passions often end up returning more to you rather than being a complete selfless act of service.
Another one of my third places has become this community! Like you recently said, 2%s have demonstrated positive discourse for a variety of topics including sometimes controversial ones like ozempic in a positive, open-minded way. The internet and social media can be a great place for one form of connection and information sharing but balance in all areas of life is crucial.
Awesome post and conversation about the value of physical connections and gathering spaces!
So glad you recommended that read awhile back.. I then instantly regretted not doing the Don't Die event as I could've met her in person!! (missing the event was secondary FOMO, ha)
My grandma continues to astound me on this front. She is widowed and lives alone but still very social. It helps that she has 5 kids, many of whom have their own kids that always come to visit her. But she also has plenty of distant relatives and friends that she does a great job of keeping in touch with. When I lived with her in Mexico for a month, I was blown away with how many visitors came by unannounced. She basically had an open door policy and at least once a day, sometimes more, a distant cousin, the local barkeeper, or an old friend would stop by and talk about literally anything for a while before getting on with their day. They would share food and stories. In that small Mexican town with no Internet I suppose people get so bored that they start seeking out each other. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it, more that our world is so filled with brain candy that we no longer seek out lower dopamine activities like having casual conversation. Thats the theory I'm putting out and I'm sticking with it
This is a fantastic conversation on an important topic!
I agree with some of the others about how difficult it is to get people together on a regular basis—which is really the way bonds are formed.
While I have a few friends I meet for walks/hikes whenever I can nail them down (so busy), volunteering has been the main driver for community building for me.
When my kids were young, I volunteered to lead "Forest Friday" hikes for our homeschooling community and found like-minded families to hike and camp with.
I also started volunteering at a community educational garden that grows vegetables for the local food bank (500–600 pounds of fresh produce each season). I eventually joined the board of the volunteer-run organization that maintains the garden, and my son, at age 18, is now a garden steward after volunteering alongside me for a decade (the bonds he has formed with folks of all ages have been priceless). We also put on monthly events for whatever topics are of interest to those on the board (food security and resilience, gardening topics, off-grid living, food preservation, preparedness, etc.). We recently worked with a local town to put on an UpSkilling event, and that cast our net of like-minded folks even wider. This work has connected me (and my kids) with so many amazing folks of all ages, interests, and skills.
The group meets over Zoom once a month to plan events, then we get together in person during those events—inviting anyone from the community who would like to join too (blending tech and in-person interactions). The library community room is our go-to indoor space for film viewings, talks, demonstrations, and book discussions, but we also have other outdoor spaces for workshops that need a bit more space.
It takes more effort than just stopping by a pre-build place, but it's worth it.
For those trying to make connections, hang in there! Keep trying. Other folks are looking for you too!
I’ve lived in an increasingly popular tourist destination for the past 20 years, and something we’ve seen happening throughout the years is the locals’ third spaces are progressively disappearing in favor of places that appeal and cater to tourists. We had a fantastic beer and wine only pub that was our version of cheers. And much like Wendy’s pub, it always played reruns of Walker, Texas Ranger when we would go have lunch. We had mugs engraved with our names behind the bar. Our trivia contests were spicy, but always good-natured. It closed almost a decade ago and is now a tea house that caters to visiting bachelorette parties. So many have followed.
Looking at my life now, I would say my most consistent community is the people I see on my rucking and running trails. We recreate with similar intentions, and even though the most we usually say is “Good morning,” there’s something beautifully simple and wholesome about our shared space.
So for background a bit over a year ago, I realized I had very few friends as my son was 22 going into final year of college, two best friends had moved overseas with families, and I just didnt have a lot of connection. Three different men had been trying to get me to F3. Fitness, Faith, and Fellowship. Free men's workout group - early morning, usually 530-615. Then we stand around and drink coffee for 15-30 minutes and get to know one another, help one another, counsel one another, and more. Boom! Also led me into regular rucking. Now I am more fit, but more importantly have an ever growing community of real friends who also do hard and sometimes crazy misogi- type challenges. I helped several and several helped me in two recent storms with multi day power outages, trees on homes etc. It's different than a Guinan's but it is a gathering and builds connection. F3 is also what led me to "Comfort Crisis" and later, this forum.
My Dad joined an F3 group on the coast of NC when he was in his mid-70s. Oldest guy there. He'd come home drenched with sweat but he loved the experience. He even did a Spartan Race with me at age 76. I understand the power of a group like this — keep it up.
I am a full time nomad living in an Airstream Bambi Sport. After 4 years of Gypsy existence and now fully retired, I am beginning to build community by volunteering. Four months in the Methow Valley in the Washington north cascades volunteering with Methow at Home. MAH helps people stay in their homes as they age plus they sponsors social gatherings. Four months in Borrego Springs located in the Anza Borrego Desert in southern California volunteering with ABDNHA co-leading hikes and helping with their evening presentations. I have found my tribe of active, engaged seniors! Life is good ~
My apologies, this is a long post. This conversation/post should go viral. I think about this quite often. I'm part of a wonderful non-profit called Midnight Run in the NYC metro area that supplies clothing, food, blankets etc. to homeless folks in NYC. We just had our 40th Anniversary Gala this past weekend. Folks from various organizations - churches, temples, girl scouts/boy scouts, schools etc. participate. When speaking with other runners that load up their cars/vans with all the items needed for the homeless folks, the same story is repeated, of course the recipients appreciate the sandwiches, boots, blankets and water, but it's the connection through conversation that matters the most to them and for the folks that are delivering they are taking more from the experience than any of the items they are giving. As we know in 2%, connections matter!
When I read the topic, it brought me back 20 plus years ago to a conversation with a good friend that I played lacrosse with at Army(West Point) that I had around the decline of the local watering holes/pubs as the advent of social media, dating sites, etc. use increased. It was a hunch at the time that folks would be more isolated/lonely behind their computers. And here we are today with the statistics to back it up.
As I read Michael's post a bit more it came full circle for me, Guinan's is the pub on the river across from West Point which I frequented many times in the early 90s as I would take the train up from NYC on Sunday's to get back to formation at West Point. Normally I would take a cab from Garrision to West Point. Many times I was running behind and would go into Guinan's and ask the crowd if anyone had a boat I would pay them $20 for passage across the river. In most cases, one of those kind-hearted souls bought me a beer and drove me for free. God Bless Guinan's, it saved my ass many times from being late and walking the area at West Point:)
Definitely buying Wendy's book. This has motivated me to be the difference maker in my sphere of influence to make the call to family/friends to get out and fish/hike/ruck/golf/chat. Thank you @Wendy and @Michael for covering such an important topic of our time.
Thanks for sharing these experiences. I had the good fortune to meet a lot of cadets who had similar experiences — some of them left their uniforms laying on Jim Guinan's floor when they went to NYC. A few of those cadets are now good friends. I like your phrase "difference maker in my sphere of influence." Nice.
I would have to say that church is my favorite gathering place. The church events, not the Sunday service, are where you can really connect with others. Our church organizes a German Christmas Market every year, which is a huge event for the entire community.
I do think one thing lost in this conversation about the lack of third places is the challenge to find them when we live in a much more mobile society. I have moved cities every few years because of jobs. It is really hard to cultivate a sense of place when that place is constantly temporary. It is also exhausting, to continually put myself out there (as I am naturally a bit more introverted).
This leaves me to look for online communities which can remain consistent regardless of my locale. I do recognize the value of in person connection, I just struggle with how to cultivate it on such a sort of shortened time scale and am just curious if anyone has thoughts in this space.
I think this is where things like Crossfit (which was mentioned in the video) or other hobbies can be valuable. I'm the biggest introvert, but when I show up to a pistol match or a strongman competition I'm talking to EVERYONE. The ice is already broken, we're there together so I already know SOMETHING we have in common. I've seen the same thing happen at monthly ham radio meetings. Somebody will be just visiting, but they saw our local club was having a meeting that was open to the public, so they dropped in. Local quilters guild meeting, same thing. Labeling people for the sake of excluding them is a cancer on our society, but labeling people for the sake of BONDING can be kind of magical.
Amy, I totally agree that people being more mobile has changed our ability to find community. Heck, I've lived in 5 different states over the last ~20 years.
I think Jonathan makes a great point. This is where hobbies can be useful. I'm also an introvert but have found a similar sense of kinship by going to places where likeminded people gather to do their thing. E.g., I went to a bunch of Dead & Company (Grateful Dead) shows over the summer and could immediately chat with anyone there. And, BTW, fantastic comment Jonathan.
I tend to have hobbies that ebb and flow and fit my locale and phase in life. For instance, I lived in Utah where I was part of some wildflower mountain hiking group. Moving to PA, the mountains were more gentle hills so I traded mountain wildflowers for a mushroom foraging (thank you rain/humidity). So I suppose some of my struggle lies in the idea that my hobbies are not "chain restaurant" things that exist everywhere. Each place I live has different hobbies & groups I join, and it kind of seems like just when I find that locale's groups and interests, I move. I suppose there is no magic formula though and I just need to keep finding those local groups.
You put this well. This is how I feel about Spartan racing. If you are putting yourself on the course, you already have something in common with the other people challenging themselves beside you. I've had some pretty meaningful conversations with strangers while panting and climbing mountains!
A little off topic, but how does the human need for community jive with some of the thoughts you express in the ‘Comfort Crisis’ about the importance of being happy on your own/alone?
I've been trying to turn my house into a "third place" for my friends and family since I'm right in the center of town but good grief man, people are so dang busy. I can hardly ever get more than one person there at a time. People don't seem to want to make socializing a priority, and communicating with them is a nightmare. I don't blame my friends for being kinda flaky, because the world is constantly throwing more to-do's in their direction, but it's a really tough go trying to be the one that organizes things. It always has been. Makes me really self-conscious that the problem is me... lol. Even trying to get people to a different third location that isn't my house is rough. Getting the opportunity to see a friend once a month is a huge stroke of luck for me these days, let alone more than one friend at a time. IDK man, this whole topic has been an internal dialogue of mine ever since I began my mid-20's. I think your 20's are just a lonelier time than people warn you about.
I wish I could tell you it gets better, but I'm approaching the end of my 30s. Married with 2 kids and... damn. It's lonely out there. Like you said, the to-do list is ever growing. And it's very difficult to make socializing a priority, especially socializing just for the sake of it. Like, it's easier to ask someone to come over to my house to lift weights. Or, let's play hookie and go to the gun range for the afternoon. But get together just to get together...? I wonder if it's FOMO.
Yes, I thinking the best chance is to combine the hanging out time with something you'd both be doing anyway... Rucking together or the range, like you said. Then the question becomes, are we only workout buddies and not real friends?! Ha, at least you're spending time with someone with similar interests either way
I commend you Ryker for trying; I have often thought how nice it would be if I could turn my house into a place where people just dropped by unannounced but I have made no real effort to do so.
I think people are busy, but I also think people have a tough time committing to "unproductive" time. There was some recent book (the name escapes me) talking about how people do not value friendships. They obviously do, but people often don't make the same effort as say a romantic relationship where you likely commit to seeing and talking at some regular frequency.
I have one friend that I have a virtual art date with twice a week. Often those dates turn into just chatting, but if we committed to twice a week chats, it would not have the same stickiness as committing to art sessions. This is certainly not the solution, but as Jonathan also says, perhaps making it a trivia night, a workout night, a <something> night would help at least develop the habit and slowly it could evolve to more of a general hang out
Ryker, consider taking a look at my comment below and maybe see if F3 has a location near you. https://f3nation.com/locations
That's really interesting. I've never heard of this! I'll look into it a little more.
The mma/jiu jitsu gym I coach at is undoubtedly one of my third places along with a local fitness group I created for the community. Amazing how volunteering your skills and passions often end up returning more to you rather than being a complete selfless act of service.
Another one of my third places has become this community! Like you recently said, 2%s have demonstrated positive discourse for a variety of topics including sometimes controversial ones like ozempic in a positive, open-minded way. The internet and social media can be a great place for one form of connection and information sharing but balance in all areas of life is crucial.
Awesome post and conversation about the value of physical connections and gathering spaces!
Wendy is great. Her book on her Spartan Race journey is something all middle aged athletes should read.
So glad you recommended that read awhile back.. I then instantly regretted not doing the Don't Die event as I could've met her in person!! (missing the event was secondary FOMO, ha)
My grandma continues to astound me on this front. She is widowed and lives alone but still very social. It helps that she has 5 kids, many of whom have their own kids that always come to visit her. But she also has plenty of distant relatives and friends that she does a great job of keeping in touch with. When I lived with her in Mexico for a month, I was blown away with how many visitors came by unannounced. She basically had an open door policy and at least once a day, sometimes more, a distant cousin, the local barkeeper, or an old friend would stop by and talk about literally anything for a while before getting on with their day. They would share food and stories. In that small Mexican town with no Internet I suppose people get so bored that they start seeking out each other. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it, more that our world is so filled with brain candy that we no longer seek out lower dopamine activities like having casual conversation. Thats the theory I'm putting out and I'm sticking with it
Good note Saul. I just finished listening to an interview with the author of Dopamine Nation and I'll stand behind your theory.
This is a fantastic conversation on an important topic!
I agree with some of the others about how difficult it is to get people together on a regular basis—which is really the way bonds are formed.
While I have a few friends I meet for walks/hikes whenever I can nail them down (so busy), volunteering has been the main driver for community building for me.
When my kids were young, I volunteered to lead "Forest Friday" hikes for our homeschooling community and found like-minded families to hike and camp with.
I also started volunteering at a community educational garden that grows vegetables for the local food bank (500–600 pounds of fresh produce each season). I eventually joined the board of the volunteer-run organization that maintains the garden, and my son, at age 18, is now a garden steward after volunteering alongside me for a decade (the bonds he has formed with folks of all ages have been priceless). We also put on monthly events for whatever topics are of interest to those on the board (food security and resilience, gardening topics, off-grid living, food preservation, preparedness, etc.). We recently worked with a local town to put on an UpSkilling event, and that cast our net of like-minded folks even wider. This work has connected me (and my kids) with so many amazing folks of all ages, interests, and skills.
The group meets over Zoom once a month to plan events, then we get together in person during those events—inviting anyone from the community who would like to join too (blending tech and in-person interactions). The library community room is our go-to indoor space for film viewings, talks, demonstrations, and book discussions, but we also have other outdoor spaces for workshops that need a bit more space.
It takes more effort than just stopping by a pre-build place, but it's worth it.
For those trying to make connections, hang in there! Keep trying. Other folks are looking for you too!
I’ve lived in an increasingly popular tourist destination for the past 20 years, and something we’ve seen happening throughout the years is the locals’ third spaces are progressively disappearing in favor of places that appeal and cater to tourists. We had a fantastic beer and wine only pub that was our version of cheers. And much like Wendy’s pub, it always played reruns of Walker, Texas Ranger when we would go have lunch. We had mugs engraved with our names behind the bar. Our trivia contests were spicy, but always good-natured. It closed almost a decade ago and is now a tea house that caters to visiting bachelorette parties. So many have followed.
Looking at my life now, I would say my most consistent community is the people I see on my rucking and running trails. We recreate with similar intentions, and even though the most we usually say is “Good morning,” there’s something beautifully simple and wholesome about our shared space.
Sorry to hear about your pub. It sounds like it was a fantastic hangout. But I'm glad you found some likeminded people out on the trails. :)
We gather as a neighbors in out cut-de-sac and either grill out or have a drink most weekends in the spring and summer.
I love this. Keep it up.
So for background a bit over a year ago, I realized I had very few friends as my son was 22 going into final year of college, two best friends had moved overseas with families, and I just didnt have a lot of connection. Three different men had been trying to get me to F3. Fitness, Faith, and Fellowship. Free men's workout group - early morning, usually 530-615. Then we stand around and drink coffee for 15-30 minutes and get to know one another, help one another, counsel one another, and more. Boom! Also led me into regular rucking. Now I am more fit, but more importantly have an ever growing community of real friends who also do hard and sometimes crazy misogi- type challenges. I helped several and several helped me in two recent storms with multi day power outages, trees on homes etc. It's different than a Guinan's but it is a gathering and builds connection. F3 is also what led me to "Comfort Crisis" and later, this forum.
My Dad joined an F3 group on the coast of NC when he was in his mid-70s. Oldest guy there. He'd come home drenched with sweat but he loved the experience. He even did a Spartan Race with me at age 76. I understand the power of a group like this — keep it up.
Tell your Dad its still not too late for F3. I hear there are numerous Triple Respects (80+) in the Carolinas. Probably elsewhere too.
I am a full time nomad living in an Airstream Bambi Sport. After 4 years of Gypsy existence and now fully retired, I am beginning to build community by volunteering. Four months in the Methow Valley in the Washington north cascades volunteering with Methow at Home. MAH helps people stay in their homes as they age plus they sponsors social gatherings. Four months in Borrego Springs located in the Anza Borrego Desert in southern California volunteering with ABDNHA co-leading hikes and helping with their evening presentations. I have found my tribe of active, engaged seniors! Life is good ~
This all sounds amazing, Carmelita!
I love volunteering too! It's a phenomenal way to connect with folks.
My apologies, this is a long post. This conversation/post should go viral. I think about this quite often. I'm part of a wonderful non-profit called Midnight Run in the NYC metro area that supplies clothing, food, blankets etc. to homeless folks in NYC. We just had our 40th Anniversary Gala this past weekend. Folks from various organizations - churches, temples, girl scouts/boy scouts, schools etc. participate. When speaking with other runners that load up their cars/vans with all the items needed for the homeless folks, the same story is repeated, of course the recipients appreciate the sandwiches, boots, blankets and water, but it's the connection through conversation that matters the most to them and for the folks that are delivering they are taking more from the experience than any of the items they are giving. As we know in 2%, connections matter!
When I read the topic, it brought me back 20 plus years ago to a conversation with a good friend that I played lacrosse with at Army(West Point) that I had around the decline of the local watering holes/pubs as the advent of social media, dating sites, etc. use increased. It was a hunch at the time that folks would be more isolated/lonely behind their computers. And here we are today with the statistics to back it up.
As I read Michael's post a bit more it came full circle for me, Guinan's is the pub on the river across from West Point which I frequented many times in the early 90s as I would take the train up from NYC on Sunday's to get back to formation at West Point. Normally I would take a cab from Garrision to West Point. Many times I was running behind and would go into Guinan's and ask the crowd if anyone had a boat I would pay them $20 for passage across the river. In most cases, one of those kind-hearted souls bought me a beer and drove me for free. God Bless Guinan's, it saved my ass many times from being late and walking the area at West Point:)
Definitely buying Wendy's book. This has motivated me to be the difference maker in my sphere of influence to make the call to family/friends to get out and fish/hike/ruck/golf/chat. Thank you @Wendy and @Michael for covering such an important topic of our time.
Thanks for sharing these experiences. I had the good fortune to meet a lot of cadets who had similar experiences — some of them left their uniforms laying on Jim Guinan's floor when they went to NYC. A few of those cadets are now good friends. I like your phrase "difference maker in my sphere of influence." Nice.
Thank you @Gwendolyn Bounds. I should have listened first;) Guinan’s really was a one of a kind place. Best of luck in your Sparta race. Beat Navy!
I would have to say that church is my favorite gathering place. The church events, not the Sunday service, are where you can really connect with others. Our church organizes a German Christmas Market every year, which is a huge event for the entire community.
I do think one thing lost in this conversation about the lack of third places is the challenge to find them when we live in a much more mobile society. I have moved cities every few years because of jobs. It is really hard to cultivate a sense of place when that place is constantly temporary. It is also exhausting, to continually put myself out there (as I am naturally a bit more introverted).
This leaves me to look for online communities which can remain consistent regardless of my locale. I do recognize the value of in person connection, I just struggle with how to cultivate it on such a sort of shortened time scale and am just curious if anyone has thoughts in this space.
I think this is where things like Crossfit (which was mentioned in the video) or other hobbies can be valuable. I'm the biggest introvert, but when I show up to a pistol match or a strongman competition I'm talking to EVERYONE. The ice is already broken, we're there together so I already know SOMETHING we have in common. I've seen the same thing happen at monthly ham radio meetings. Somebody will be just visiting, but they saw our local club was having a meeting that was open to the public, so they dropped in. Local quilters guild meeting, same thing. Labeling people for the sake of excluding them is a cancer on our society, but labeling people for the sake of BONDING can be kind of magical.
Amy, I totally agree that people being more mobile has changed our ability to find community. Heck, I've lived in 5 different states over the last ~20 years.
I think Jonathan makes a great point. This is where hobbies can be useful. I'm also an introvert but have found a similar sense of kinship by going to places where likeminded people gather to do their thing. E.g., I went to a bunch of Dead & Company (Grateful Dead) shows over the summer and could immediately chat with anyone there. And, BTW, fantastic comment Jonathan.
I tend to have hobbies that ebb and flow and fit my locale and phase in life. For instance, I lived in Utah where I was part of some wildflower mountain hiking group. Moving to PA, the mountains were more gentle hills so I traded mountain wildflowers for a mushroom foraging (thank you rain/humidity). So I suppose some of my struggle lies in the idea that my hobbies are not "chain restaurant" things that exist everywhere. Each place I live has different hobbies & groups I join, and it kind of seems like just when I find that locale's groups and interests, I move. I suppose there is no magic formula though and I just need to keep finding those local groups.
You put this well. This is how I feel about Spartan racing. If you are putting yourself on the course, you already have something in common with the other people challenging themselves beside you. I've had some pretty meaningful conversations with strangers while panting and climbing mountains!
The NYT had an article today on gathering in public NYC parks to work out together. It reminded me of this thread!
Here’s a gift link for anyone interested:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/style/outdoor-workouts-nyc-motivational-monday.html?unlocked_article_code=1.UU4.ul3D.QfzS6iZH5ELq&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
A little off topic, but how does the human need for community jive with some of the thoughts you express in the ‘Comfort Crisis’ about the importance of being happy on your own/alone?